Discuss Template:Navbox locations
RE: Template:Navbox businesses
It should remain one template. This is the only way that people can easily find any business. Ikip (talk) 19:44, 7 November 2023 (UTC)
- ThinkDock1721 (talk)I don't mean splitting into multiple templates. I mean by section. The sections we currently have, while they are good as a list, are long, bloated, and hard to read. We should go about organizing the sections into a more readable format once all the articles are updated with proper elaboration. ThinkDock1721 (talk)
- I think that all different stores should at the very least have their own category within retail and stores. for example, retail and stores- supermarkets-clothing stores-gun stores-army surplus stores-convenience stores- etc etc.
- I also think that we should apply this to other categories. ex Utilities-gas stations-public transport etc, Services-medical-law enforcement etc. Offices and apartments should be separated, offices-law firms, general, etc.
- On top of that, some of these locations aren't really businesses. For example, the various apartment buildings, Topcrown Plaza, Construction Sites, the Knox Military Apartments, the list goes on. They're more general locations. Maybe we should rename the template to navbox locations? That'd take a massive effort to change all the pages' navbox's names. Maybe we should talk to User:Vaileasys and get his bot to help with that if we go through with it?
- Regardless, the template needs a massive update. What do you think? ThinkDock1721 (talk)
With your ideas, in mind, I WP:BOLDly edited the template. Here is the edit: Template:Navbox_businesses
I think maybe the medical stuff (hospital and phramacies) should be together? The services section is a hell of a lot of worthless buildings with no use in game, except for the fire deparment police department, hospital and vet clinics (for medical supplies). Maybe they should all have their own category? emergency services for example, which will include the pharmacies.
In my edit I tried to seperate all of the useful businesses that a player would look for, with the businesses which are worthless to a player. (i.e. clothing shops)
I was not sure were to put GigaMart maybe it can be included in both the food and the "other" section. There is no need to split grocery stores with convient stores, because they are basically both grocery stores, which only difference is size.
I included pawn shops in the useful hunting and bait section because guns can be found in these shops sometimes.
the "other" category in retail, what is left over, is mostly worthless shops which have no use for the player. the exception maybe the farm shops, which can be including in the hunting section if desired.
Faal spends a lot of time making edits that look nice only for editors, and make no difference to the reader. (spacing for example). As far as renaming the template, I say keep it the same name, but maybe rename the business page locations and the template name up top, locations also. No need to spend time changing the template name across the wiki. A lot of unnecessary work.
thoughts?
Ikip (talk) 19:27, 9 November 2023 (UTC)
- Definitely a good start. All the businesses should be in some sort of category for organizational purposes later down the line, but it's not a massive priority at the moment. Feel free to continue adding to it though. I'll see if there's a way I can make it look nicer later down the line. ThinkDock1721 (talk)
- Yeah, I spent quite a lot of time to clean up things under the hood, but I think it's good in the end; after all, a lot of our readers are (or will be) editors at some point too! I think renaming the businessess to locations isn't a terrible idea, seeing how the template progressed, but keep in mind we should separate locations as in "cities" from the (usual) businessess (as in buildings). —Faalagorn☎/✓ 21:22, 12 November 2023 (UTC)
- I reorganized the order of some of the buisnesses, the idea is to have the most valuable, and most accessed for the player at the top.
- I split gas station from utilities and landromat, making a 1st new category, and moving gas station near the top, above the restaurants (food is plentiful, gas is not, thus more valuable and sought after).
- The 2nd new category is medical supplies, just below gas stations. It includes pharmacies and hospitals. It also includes the vet and animal hospitals because they have medical supplies.
- I added fire and police. The police and prison is seperated out from services because of guns. correct me if i am wrong, but firestations have firemen outfits and axes, which makes them very valuable also. Maybe in the future, I want to somehow highlight the border camp or add it somewhere prominent because it has guns too.
- looking forward, There are 20 categories max to play with in the template presently. We can always add more.
- I dont like the retail, but it is getting better. I will play with it as I get ideas how do manage it.
- Ikip (talk) 04:48, 13 November 2023 (UTC)
- Yeah, I spent quite a lot of time to clean up things under the hood, but I think it's good in the end; after all, a lot of our readers are (or will be) editors at some point too! I think renaming the businessess to locations isn't a terrible idea, seeing how the template progressed, but keep in mind we should separate locations as in "cities" from the (usual) businessess (as in buildings). —Faalagorn☎/✓ 21:22, 12 November 2023 (UTC)
Plan For Reorganization
This has been discussed on the Locations and Maps talk page, but let's move it here for easier readability.
Overall, my plan is to split every category to have all locations be in some sort of distinct subcategory (e.g. Grocery Stores), even the "worthless" ones that offer no significant loot or use to the player. If we're going to categorize the template, we might as well do all of it instead of just a few parts of it. I think it is important to clarify that while some locations may be "useless" to the player, they still are just as important to the wiki as the more "useful" ones, and to standardize everything (which is one of the the goals of project locations and maps) they must be given the same level of attention. This also includes separating stores with similar loot if they are a different type or scale. For example, while grocery stores and convenience stores may have some similarities in loot to be found, grocery stores are much larger and can contain more loot, so they should be separated. All in all, store types with similar loot but different aspects should be separated. Another example of this would be hunting stores and army surplus stores. However, hunting stores and gun stores could also probably be combined into the same category since they are similar in nature.
Currently, there are 15 (if I counted right) major categories. I feel most of these can be shrunk down and included in other larger categories. For example, Gas stations could be included into services as a subcategory, as well as fire and police. However, if we are to do that, services must be split into other subcategories too.
For example, we can do this: services-fire-police-medical-gas stations-public transport-utilities-laundromats-social centers-hair/beauty/tattoo-entertainment/leisure.
This encompasses several different types of businesses under one big category in an easy to find way.
What I also noticed is that several articles don't necessarily fit into the right spots. For example, there are a lot of law firms and other offices in several different categories, when these should be in an offices category, also with subcategories.
For example, law firms-insurance-corporation headquarters'-travel offices-debt offices, etc etc etc.
On top of that, there are several articles that would be better included in other navboxes such as navbox media. For example, Life and Living TV, NNR Radio, and WBLN News do not have a broadcasting studio building in game, and thus should be removed and relocated to navbox media if not already there. This is mainly because navbox businesses is mainly about buildings and chains present in the game world itself that can be visited and explored, and not necessarily corporation titles or business entities.
Speaking of names, I'm not too sure that navbox businesses would be the best title for the template. Sure there are a lot of businesses, but there are also a good amount of locations that aren't really businesses, such as Construction site, Church, Louisville Central Park, Du Case Apartments, and Gated community. Maybe a better name would be navbox buildings?
I do acknowledge that doing this would take a monumental amount of effort, especially if we were to change the title. We could just change the name at the top of the template, but that would introduce inconsistency that I'd like to avoid. I know User:Vaileasys has been experimenting with a bot, and this would be a great use of it since it can make all those edits in an extremely short time.
Overall, that is the current plan as of Nov 14, 2023 for this template. Thoughts, everyone? ThinkDock1721 (talk)
- So far it all sounds sane; keep in mind that there are also two other businessess that have no location, Tooks and Incontileve that are only mentioned in adverts. I forgot where they were mentioned.
- I think renaming the template sounds sane, you don't have to move everything at once (and it could be done with a bot), as the old redirect will still work.
- About splitting; I'd have to wrap my head around it, and it might take a while (not sooner than the weekend, maybe later), maybe will come easier to me after I grasp categories a little, but what the hypens signalize? Maybe you could do a drawing or an ordered/unordered list of how you see it? —Faalagorn☎/✓ 18:04, 14 November 2023 (UTC)
- They hyphens signaling the different subcategories, similar to what User:Ikip had already done. Basically it will all still be in this same template, but separated in what Ikip has done with the retail and stores section. ThinkDock1721 (talk)
- I'll do a rough sketch of my vision and ping you and User:Ikip on discord.ThinkDock1721 (talk)
I told ThinkDoc1721 I was opposed to renaming the template. But he expressed this here anyway. The vast majority are buisnesses.
I have created tha vast majority of these articles, and I have spent the most time on this. I split it up into sections to appease ThinkDock1721.
On discord ThinkDock1721 said that him and I agree on something earlier, before I joined, that is simply not the case.
I named the building template the incredibly cumbersome template:Building multi location to appease him too.
The order now is what is useful, quote: "For example, Gas stations could be included into services" with laundromats and buildings which are empty offices with no use?
convinent stores are small grocery stores.
Look at the history of this template, it started with me last year. I have been editing wikis since before 15:26, 5 February 2010.
What is useful in the game for the player? That is the way I am trying to organize it.
Ikip (talk) 22:47, 15 November 2023 (UTC)
- Lets revert it back to what it was before I compromised because of ThinkDoc1721's persistent complaints:
- Ikip (talk) 23:34, 15 November 2023 (UTC)
Quote:[1]
- Decide how to split Navbox businesses template
- Possibly add more sections or navboxes for different business types? (UNDECIDED)
- Navboxes, plural. I took care of the sections. It was your idea, and I did it to appease you ThinkDoc. Ikip (talk) 23:39, 15 November 2023 (UTC)
- There's no rush renaming, especially to please someone, so that can wait, obviously. We could as well keep two names, won't hurt, same as we have both
{{Stub}}and{{Notice|Short}}or{{Deletion}}and{{Template:Deletion}}. About the order, while I often rate, and like, sorting things by some importance in my head, keep in mind that when it comes to loot things might not be so simple; for example for me playing with friends guns are of less importance – I rather search for good clothes, good weapons or things to level my skills and for some food finding the generator or of food might be the most important :) —Faalagorn☎/✓ 23:53, 15 November 2023 (UTC)
- There's no rush renaming, especially to please someone, so that can wait, obviously. We could as well keep two names, won't hurt, same as we have both
- Ok, I'm not sure exactly what's going on here, but let's slow down. User:Ikip, I apologize if you're upset at me. I want this to be a collaborative effort, and I sincerely appreciate all the work you do.
- The reason I brought up the gas stations is because while they may be more important to players, they are most certainly "services", and should thus be in the services category. However, they should definitely be in their own "gas stations" subcategory, and we can put that at the top. Notice how I also ordered the most useful services buildings at the top when I did my breakdown as to how it might be best to split it.
- I also maintain that offices should be in their own category and that they are indeed useless to most players. There are a lot of offices that are in the services section. These can be moved to "offices" and will significantly reduce the bloating in that section.
- I also don't understand how "building multi location" is cumbersome. It's only a few words. While I'd love for it to be shorter, it's better that the meaning and purpose is obvious. At the end of the day, there's always copy and paste.
- I also deleted the "add more navboxes" part after it was made clear that it was not needed.
- The whole jist of the plan was to add a bunch of subcategories to make it look nicer, be easier to read, and not just a big block of text.
- Thoughts? ThinkDock1721 (talk)
- RETAIL STORES
- Valuable retail stores for the player's survival
- RETAIL STORES, part 2
- Less valuable or no value businesses for the players survival
- (book naked moved - gigamart in the retail food category also)
- Valuable businesses for the players survival
The remaining businesses below restaurants and bars, with some exceptions?, have no value or as important as these businesses above for a new player epecially.
- Everything below the general tab is generally not valuable
(except for schools for books)
- Media
I would have never found out about these other media organizations if this was never added.
Ikip (talk) 23:58, 15 November 2023 (UTC)
- I agree, I think your ordering of retail stores and services is great. I propose a compromise. Let's move services above the restaurants section and include the important stuff like fire police gas stations into it as subcategories at the top of the services category. Thoughts?
A&S Trading Co. • Alliance Data Entry • Back To The Nurture Chiropractic Services • Bail Bonds • Bible Spirit Baptist Church • Sky Blue Banking • Brooks Public Library of Louisville • Canto Records • Carton & Sydney Law Services • Cemetery • Central Louisville Community Center • Church of the Risen Christ • City Hall • Commander Publishing Inc • County Clerk and Records • County Offices • Courthouse • Deerhead Lake Park Ranger • Discount Account • Eternal Light Chapel • Evan Philips Tax and Accounting • Evergreen Hill Community Center • First Baptist Chapel • Goodman Legal Services • H. Smith Attorney • Holy Grace Church • Holy Haven Cemetary • Holy Light Baptist Church • HomeWard Real Estate • Keep Afloat Debt Consolidation • Kentucky Court of Justice • Knox Bank • KPK Consulting Business Investments • KY Transit • Legal Services • Louisville border campGuns • Louisville Train Station • Louisville Expo Center • March Ridge Community Center • Markson & Co. • Marple & Christie Legal Services • Military Research FacilityGuns • Mind Peace Insurance • Mounted Police Training • Palm Travel • Raney & Daye Investment Firm • Rosewood Christian Church • Sacred Flame Church • Shady Oaks Nursing Home • Slimtax Accounting • Speedy Legal • St. Michael's Cathederal • St. Vincent De Paul Church • Sunset Pines Funeral Home • Temp Agency • United Shipping Logistics • U.S. Mail Service • ValuInsurance • Walter & Perry Legal Firm • West Maple Country Club • West Point Town Hall
All of these businesses are deserts, with little to no value, except for Louisville border camp and Military Research Facility. Mostly paper. If I was a scavenger in the apocolypse, I would want to know where the food is first. Ikip (talk) 00:58, 16 November 2023 (UTC)
- The military research facility doesn't have guns in its loot tables though. The only guns come from the soldiers, and they don't always have guns either. I agree though, they are worthless in the end. The military facility has a lot of lore significance though User:ThinkDock1721
Russia and China are retail producing countries, a product is made.
America has increasingly become a service economy, services, with both government and private sector is when nothing is produced.
Services section:
- Churches can be split up with the new templates, and
- all of the other businesses in the "Services" section.
- non-emergency Government services can also be split up, in the services section.
Now Vibrance created the subcategories. Thanks :) Ikip (talk) 03:42, 16 November 2023 (UTC)
First edit on template:
- 19:16, 4 October 2023 ThinkDock1721
- 07:09, 18 December 2022 Ikip - https://pzwiki.net/w/index.php?title=Template:Navbox_businesses&oldid=83609
Created this, 07:14, 18 December 2022:
Ikip (talk) 04:20, 16 November 2023 (UTC)
- Interesting
ThinkDock1721 — 09/13/2023 8:17 PM
@Faalagorn I'm absolutely down to swap with Pohly. Sorry I didn't check earlier, I forgot to turn on pings for this discord as I have them off by default.
I'd be more than happy to help Locations and Maps get some proper traction.
On top of that, I've noticed that Ikip's edits tend to more so lay the groundwork for other editors. It's very important, but I'm not sure that translates to active leadership well.
- UNTRUE
ThinkDock1721 — 10/06/2023 9:50 PM
Why not have them included in both? I mean, they are related to vehicles and are technically businesses as well.
I've also discussed with Ikip about splitting up infobox businesses by indivual towns, creating categories for each in place of the "retail and stores" etc etc. That we currently have. We seem to both like the idea. Thoughts?
Ikip (talk) 04:39, 16 November 2023 (UTC)
- We all make mistakes, and I apologize for the misunderstanding. That's why I said seem because I wasn't completely 100% sure but from what I saw, you seemed to be mostly ok with it. That's no longer the plan obviously, and we've since moved on. I don't see why it's important to bring that up since that's not even the plan anymore.
- I wasn't bashing you at all. Just going off of the information that I had at the moment. That's why I use seem so much. I always like to communicate when I'm not 100% about something. At the end of the day if I had something against you I'd be arguing with you and calling you names right now but I'm not.
- While you may have created the template, I just want to improve it through organization. In no way am I trying to erase anything you've done. :)
Conversation on discord, Tuesday November 21 2023 Moscow time
ThinkDock1721 — Today at 1:11 AM
Ikip, I'm not going to fight with you here. Let's have a civil discussion. If you're going to be rude ill have a mod deal with this.
I did not lie knowingly. I was working with the information I had at the time. I even apologized for the misunderstanding. Things happen. I apologize.
Regarding navbox businesses, I haven't ignored anything and pressed on. Notice how I didn't start categorizing anything. It's only been you so far. All I did was make a plan and ask for thoughts and you went on a massive tirade. I wanted to move it to a place that wasn't cluttered with other stuff.
If I "ignored your advice", I wouldn't have even added that to the talk page. I wouldve just started categorizing stuff. I haven't categorized one thing.
If you have a disagreement with me on something I'm happy to talk. You didn't have to "bend over backwards" at all. In fact, when you first made the multi location template, you named it incorrectly and we agreed on a name. What else have you "bent over backwards" for? ikip — Today at 1:11 AM
forgetting what it is like being a newbie
clearly many of us - we forget what it is like to be a newbie.
Template:Navbox locations For example, arguing about the importance of seperating a convience store with a grocery store. See the zombie film. Wikipedia:The Girl with All the Gifts (film)
Another example, placing worthless goverment buildings above restaurants and food, some of which food will last for up to a decade. also Wikipedia:The Walking Dead (TV series), season 4, episode 1 when they are looking for food and looting houses. All the paper has turned to mulch.
Wikipedia:Red_link Scientific studies of wikipedia show that red links make a wiki grow.
Ikip (talk) 06:09, 25 November 2023 (UTC)
Jewelry or Jewellry
I like the American spelling better note: Sheba Jewellers Ikip (talk) 22:30, 15 November 2023 (UTC)
- The US Spelling is Jewelry. If you have Language Tool plugin installed on your browser and set to English (US) (which I highly recommend to; it's free and helps a lot, spotting double spaces, typos, and spelling mistakes, plus things like Oxford/serial comma). I originally asked Kirrus back then, he then asked upwards what was the preferred spelling, and they (Will?) said that (sadly) the US spelling is preferred, which is noted in Help:Style guide, as the game's set in the US, although as the core devs and a lot folks from the are, from the UK or learned the UK variant, there are a lot of inconsistencies. I kinda want for the US/UK separation to be in the game too, the UK is in game files, but not yet available, see the table at PZwiki:Project Translations. —Faalagorn☎/✓ 23:40, 15 November 2023 (UTC)
- Cool the UK is in game files, what do you mean? I live in Moscow Russia, so british english comes up in google first. I prefer American English myself, just wanted to explain why I type it that way. I hate British English. Ikip (talk) 00:35, 16 November 2023 (UTC)
- I mean, the game uses UK English often, since the creators are from the UK (mostly). As you realized, even Google comes up with British English, it is also taught in schools. However, we did settle on US English as per Help:Style guide, so the US English stays where possible. —Faalagorn☎/✓ 02:00, 16 November 2023 (UTC)
March Ridge Dormitory
I think this is the Knox Military Apartments. Ikip (talk) 00:35, 16 November 2023 (UTC)
color schemes for subcategories
https://icolorpalette.com/color/808080 GRAY
https://icolorpalette.com/color/68191b 68191b the color of the navbox originally.
Ikip (talk) 03:33, 16 November 2023 (UTC)
highlighting exclusive louisville businesses? Thoughts?
Before I continued, adding Template:Highlight also called Template:Highlight, I wanted everyone's opinion on me adding yellow as a background for exclusive Louisville businesses.
Other colors are possible for Louisville and other locations, but blue and green are two dark.
The template itself can be expanded to having a small key, explaing that Lousiville = Yellow (for example), Muldraugh = Orange? etc.
Ikip (talk) 13:59, 21 November 2023 (UTC)
- I think it's a good idea. I'd see if there's a way to make the highlight color not as bright though, since it might make the individual name of the location harder to read. If not, then no big deal, we'll just have to work around it and pick colors that don't obstruct the name.
I dont care for the color scheme 100%, for the highlighted towns, my edits are a work in progress.
I feel as if I am trying to choose a new color for the moscow metro or building a world map, where all the colors have to be legible.
I have not highlighted the rest of the template's buildings/businesses to designate a location because I continue to posit that these shops are worthless for the average player to loot. Except, of course, some of these "worthless" loot locations are fun to visit as a tourist for the first time. Good night/morning 12:52 am in Moscow. Novemeber 28, 2023. Ikip (talk) 21:52, 27 November 2023 (UTC)
Colleges & schools BOOKS* section
The ORANGE asterisks means that there are exceptions. Some locations don't actually have any books, such as ABCDriving School coordinates 12660x2206 in Louisville. It could be made to be smaller Ikip (talk) 21:45, 27 November 2023 (UTC)
5,108 edits to this template as of Wednesday January 24, 2024
Newest 5,000 edits:
Ikip (talk) 08:04, 24 January 2024 (UTC)
Pretty template
Ikip (talk) 14:30, 24 January 2024 (UTC)
Items added myself
Revision as of 20:21, 22 October 2023 by Ikip (talk | contribs) (added Deerhead Lake Park Ranger) (diff) ← Older revision | Latest revision (diff) | Newer revision → (diff)
- Clothing store (Riverside)
- Grocery store (Riverside)
- Strip mall (Riverside)
- Outskirts Diner (Riverside)
- Bar (Riverside)
- Cafe (Muldraugh)
Removing. Ikip (talk) 04:27, 7 February 2024 (UTC)
- These were brought back temporarily, until we resolve the issue of template changes outlined in #Suggested move, following a brief discussion on Discord, barred the Outskirts Diner (Riverside) which was merged with the relevant page, so let me remove the link – keep in mind that the names can be updated later on, so these links would probably have to be adjusted to no longer link to red ones! —Faalagorn☎/✓ 14:34, 11 February 2024 (UTC)
Suggested move
It has been suggested that Template:Navbox locations be moved to Template:Navbox regions and Template:Navbox locations be moved to Template:Navbox locations.
This is due to the current contents of Navbox businesses not fitting its heading. The move would also involve Navbox businesses to undergo an upgrade including sub headings for various types of locations found in Knox country. The current sub heading suggestions include;
- Businesses
- Points of interest
- Services
See here for an example of sub navboxes.
Other wikis are already using subheadings in their navboxes with success.
Time will be given for discussion while other projects are being completed. The majority of discussion will occur on discord however discussion here will be taken into account before a decision is made.
Calvy (talk) 03:13, 10 February 2024 (UTC)
- Oppose thus was thinking suggestion to name this businesses ontктюthe first place User:Ikip
- I didn't think through the naming myself yet, but the subheadings are definitely a way to go! We had a brief discussion on it on discord too. And yeah, better to give it a week at least :) —Faalagorn☎/✓ 19:16, 10 February 2024 (UTC) EDIT: Actually, I think the name would be fitting, as we already have Help:Boilerplate location, still probably ideal to wait with it a bit for discussion before moving. —Faalagorn☎/✓ 23:44, 10 February 2024 (UTC)